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"Let me take you back...back into time.
When the only people that existed were cave men...cave women...
Neanderthals...Troglodytes!"
-Jimmy Castor Bunch, "Troglodyte"

In the long-distant past when I was young, when dinosaurs roamed the Earth (or were they Cadillac Coupe DeVilles?) and times were so different we referred to them by different numbers -MCMLXIV, I believe it was- it was a proud and lonely thing to be a science fiction fan. Reading that "trashy Buck Rogers stuff" was definitely frowned upon by most right-thinking Americans, middlebrow and high-class alike, and the same was true of comic books, which were regarded as fodder for children and the immature. TV shows and movies with science-fiction plots and themes were few and far between, and SF fans, many of whom were, to be completely honest, more than a little socially retarded, tended to get together at small "conventions" where they could talk with other people who also read Asimov, Clarke, Heinlein, Herbert, and this disturbing young fellow Ellison. It was regarded as quite remarkable when the 1974 World Science Fiction Convention held in Washington topped four thousand people in its membership.

Yet even then, the changes in fandom were underway. A short-lived show on NBC, Star Trek, generated massive fan interest in people who had never heard of science fiction fandom. The Trek fans flooded into fandom, and in the first of a sadly repetitive series of dumb mistakes, fandom turned on these newcomers and made them aware that they were most certainly Not Welcome. Fandom's open and non-judgmental culture suddenly became harshly critical of "drobes" who ran around in Starfleet and Klingon uniforms they hadn't even made themselves, and Trekkies who seemingly had no other interest in SF outside the series. This was horseshit, of course; perhaps predictable horseshit, given that so many SF fans (as I mentioned previously) were more than a little lacking in social skills, but horseshit all the same. Trekkies were in many cases SF fans fired up by the campaigns to bring the show back, fans writing fanfic, fans writing fanzines to publish fanfic and fanart in, fans starting conventions to which bemused actors were invited and besieged by legions of fans seeking autographs. In short, fans doing fanac, but not in the Approved Manner or on the Approved Topics. And so Trek fandom and its conventions, for the most part, went its separate way from traditional literary SF fandom.

Not too long after the hordes of unwashed Trekkies had been successfully repelled from the ghetto, a fellow named George Lucas showed up at the Kansas City Worldcon in 1976, promoting a remake of Akira Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress featuring starships, a courageous young farmboy with hidden psychic powers, a couple of amusing robots, two ancient masters of martial arts, and a brutal Galactic Empire. He got a warm reception, and a few years later millions of people around the world were flocking to see the movie we all know now as Star Wars. They, too, started showing up at science fiction conventions, and got the same warm reception shown to their older brothers and sisters the Trekkies, and they in turn started going to what were increasingly called media conventions. The media conventions, like the Trek conventions before them, were very different from the fan-run SF conventions that preceded them. More (if not most) of them were unabashedly for-profit, charged different membership rates with different levels of access to the guests, and sometimes seemed more like combination flea markets/autograph sessions, with some panels where the guests talked about the shows. And they drew tens of thousands of people, because after Hollywood saw the huge piles of money Lucas was making, they couldn't wait to launch a new Star Trek movie, a new Star Trek TV series, and all manner of TV shows and movies with science fiction themes. And lo, the fans of these shows and movies were likewise greeted with a cold shoulder by the Big Name Fans, Filthy Pros, and Secret Masters of Fandom.

At about the same time, role-playing games (Dungeons and Dragons, Traveller) exploded in popularity, followed not much later by collectible card games like Magic. For some reason, gamers had always fit better with traditional fandom, perhaps because so many of them were SF and fantasy fans to begin with, but after a while (perhaps around the time video games started becoming affordable and popular) they, too, started feeling less than welcome at regular SF conventions, and began going off to swell the crowds at GenCon and other conventions that were mostly about games and gaming.

Are you starting to see a pattern here? Is a trend becoming apparent to you? Here, let's add another ingredient to this mulligan stew. In 1997, while I and my wife at the time were mostly busy trying to raise our kids, the regional SF convention in Minneapolis, Minicon, was in crisis. Attendance had ballooned to over three thousand people, staff turnover and burnout were epidemic, and the fan club nominally responsible for running Minicon, MNSTF, had no real idea whether the con was making money, losing money, or investing it in beaver hat futures on the Medicine Hat Commodities Exchange. The MNSTF Board of Directors, wakened from their dogmatic slumber by all the hooting, hollering, carrying-on, shrieks of horror, and assorted gibbering, actually paid serious attention to various proposals regarding the upcoming Minicon. One proposal, advanced by Minicon veteran Victor Raymond, was to split the baby: have one Minicon dedicated to traditional SF fandom, and another at a different time which would be more of a Gathering of the Clans, a three-ring circus and big ol' party for media fans, anime fans, BDSM folk, and the other subcultures drawn to SF fandom, where being different wasn't automatically considered bad. Another proposal, which was the one MNSTF wound up going with, was called the High Resolution Minicon Proposal, and whatever its authors' original intentions, it was seen by most of Upper Midwest fandom as "Thanks for all the time and money you've sunk into Minicon over the years, you fringefans, but we're tired of you now, and you need to fuck right off." What became immediately apparent was that the vast majority of Minicon's attendance and staff had in fact been made up of those "fringefans" for quite some time, and in the years following the implementation of the HRMP, Minicon's attendance imploded to a low of about 400 people. Meanwhile, those fans who felt snubbed by the HRMP organized two other conventions: Marscon, more focused on media and gaming but still mainly an SF convention, and Convergence, essentially Minicon 2.0. So in the end, what Victor had campaigned for happened anyway, but instead of successfully managing the change and remaining the preeminent SF club in the upper Midwest, MNSTF dropped the ball and dwindled into obscurity, which their graying membership seems quite happy with. The same thing, with minor variations, also happened at Boskone and Disclave and other regional conventions, so I think it's reasonable to draw a few conclusions about SF Fandom in general from these examples.

Let's fast forward a few years. By now, everyone is familiar with the Sad Puppies story: Larry Correia noticed a drop in Worldcon attendance correlating with an increase in Hugo Awards to works of SF that weren't terribly successful in the marketplace, but were written by the Right People and tended to have the Right Characters expressing the Right Views. Over the next two years, he tested the hypothesis, encouraging his readers and friends to join Worldcon and vote. Membership numbers at Worldcon increased, votes for the Hugo increased, and in the third year of Sad Puppies, when massive numbers of people bought supporting memberships and nominated works by John Wright, Tom Kratman, Michael Williamson, and other authors considered "badthinkers" by defenders of the existing order - the same people, mind you, who had encouraged Larry to go out and get more people to join Worldcon if he felt it wasn't sufficiently reflective of the SF market- the backlash from people such as Patrick and Teresa Nielsen-Hayden, John Scalzi, David Gerrold, and various unhousebroken employees of Tor Books was vitriolic. The Sad Puppies (and their co-belligerents, the Rabid Puppies led by Vox Day) were libeled as racists, homophobes, neo-Nazis, misogynists and pretty much every politically correct insult in the book. In the end, despite the Puppy Kickers' hypocritical preaching against the evils of "slate voting", a bloc of 2500 voters chose "No Award" over any work nominated from the Sad Puppies/Rabid Puppies list - a list, mind you, that SP3 leader Brad Torgersen had not delivered from on high, but instead crowdsourced from anyone who wanted to suggest works worth nominating. Vox Day's Rabid Puppies list was almost identical to the SP list, but as far as anyone knows, it was a list he chose and distributed to the Dread Ilk. This massive "No Award" result, which doubled the number of such from the entire history of the Hugo Awards, was loudly cheered and celebrated by those in attendance at the Hugo Award banquet; this cheering was encouraged by MC David Gerrold, while thousands of fans around the world were subjected to this display of vile behavior thanks to the Internet.

Having read the preceding, should the results of SP3 have been a surprise to anyone? The people running WSFS and the people running local SF conventions are the same people who for the last fifty years have been mouthing off about "openness" and "tolerance" and "not being judgmental" while doing their best to run off "fringefans" at every opportunity instead of welcoming new chums and introducing them to the wider world of science fiction and fantasy. In order to join traditional fandom, you are only allowed to come in through one door, only allowed to read certain books, only allowed to express certain opinions. Then you can be accepted as a "true fan". Why would anyone in their right mind want to put themselves through that? It's a good question, and one which a lot of fans have answered by ignoring traditional fandom in favor of geek culture events such as the San Diego Comic Convention, Otakon, GenCon, and Dragon*Con. Some fans have signed up for Sad Puppies 4, hoping to recruit enough friends and allies to retake the Hugo Awards from the Sadducees and Pharisees who have controlled it (and increasingly, handed it out to those favored by Tor) for going on ten years.

In the long term, though, perhaps what fandom (as opposed to Fandom) needs to do is build up a fan organization that welcomes all fans of science fiction and fantasy, no matter what door they enter by. Fortunately, one already exists, and has existed since 1941: the National Fantasy Fan Federation (N3F). The dues are lower, there's more to do between conventions, and eventually, given enough time and members, what the membership of the N3F thinks about anime, books, comics, games, and movies may prove to be more important than what an insular group of graying old WSFS members think.

UPDATE: Okay, closing the comments now for two reasons. One, the vast majority of you seem intent on beating the dead Sasquan/Hugos horse, which was merely an example of the larger issue. Two, I'm not particularly interested in hosting that beating.

That having been said, thanks to lydy and dd_b for politely correcting me on stuff I got wrong about Diversicon and providing another POV on the whole HRMP kerfluffle, respectively. No thanks to nwhyte for accusing Brad Torgersen of shenanigans regarding the SP3 pre-nomination crowd-sourcing and insisting Brad prove his innocence after being called out. That's not how it works, Nick, and you should be adult enough to know better.

Comments

( 210 comments )
(Deleted comment)
wombat_socho
Oct. 18th, 2015 05:55 pm (UTC)
Noted and corrected. Thank you!
selenite
Oct. 18th, 2015 05:07 am (UTC)
I've been to cons in CA, GA, NY, WA, and various places in between. They were all more fun than the Worldcon I went to. At this point when I think of Worldcon and its attachments the Kirk quote comes to mind: "Let them die!"
wombat_socho
Oct. 18th, 2015 05:59 pm (UTC)
My experience has mostly been with conventions near DC and the Upper Midwest; I haven't been to any Worldcons since 1983. MidAmericon II (if I go) will be my first since Constellation, and I don't have high hopes for it.

I think the Hugos are still worth fighting for. WSFS, obviously, not so much.
(no subject) - drplokta - Oct. 19th, 2015 06:35 am (UTC) - Expand
Lou Antonelli
Oct. 18th, 2015 01:22 pm (UTC)
Eyewitness account
Kudos, a brilliant article.

"This massive "No Award" result, which doubled the number of such from the last ten years, was loudly cheered and celebrated by those in attendance at the Hugo Award banquet; this cheering was encouraged by MC David Gerrold, while thousands of fans around the world were subjected to this display of vile behavior thanks to the Internet."

As one of the Sad Puppy nominees, I was there sitting in a front row throughout this debacle; trust me, it was worse in person.
wombat_socho
Oct. 18th, 2015 06:00 pm (UTC)
Re: Eyewitness account
Thank you. I can only imagine what it must have been like to be there in person, on the receiving end of the Two Minute Hate.
Re: Eyewitness account - safewrite - Oct. 19th, 2015 02:14 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Eyewitness account - wombat_socho - Oct. 19th, 2015 02:27 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Eyewitness account - mauser - Oct. 19th, 2015 07:51 am (UTC) - Expand
rottenshworz
Oct. 18th, 2015 08:27 pm (UTC)
Holy Jesus Christ on a dinosaur!
Now I know, how soviet cons of 1980-ies would look like if political comissars actually tried to lead them instead of just supressing!
wombat_socho
Oct. 18th, 2015 10:13 pm (UTC)
Re: Holy Jesus Christ on a dinosaur!
We seem to have raised our own generation of commissars, though fortunately they don't have the punitive powers of the old Soviet blue-tabs.
adriennef
Oct. 18th, 2015 10:45 pm (UTC)
The Hugos and the Puppy controversy
There is nothing like an anonymous person posting criticism about a controversy he doesn't fully understand.

The uproar was not so much about the politics of the people on the slate--although, sadly, a lot of the commentary online did digress to that--it was about the nominators who submitted ballots for work they hadn't read/seen/heard to judge for themselves. Vox Day, in particular, insisted his followers nominated his ballot exactly as he gave it to them with no deviations and then never bothered purchasing a Worldcon membership himself. (I was on Sasquan staff and have confirmed that is true.) The sad part is the folks who accepted his marching orders couldn't see they were being manipulated into promoting Day's own publishing company, Castalia House.

The Hugos are nothing but a marketing game to Vox Day. While I believe Correia and Torgerson are more altruistic in their efforts--they even refused to accept any nominations that came their way--Vox Day took everything he could. What's even more disappointing is those who accepted Puppy support will likely never receive another Hugo nomination, as fans tend to have a long memories. Day's vitriol against the community has hurt and offended members so much, he'll never be forgiven. I also blame his malevolence for the antagonism the Puppy nominees had to deal with.

And as for David Gerrold encouraging people to vote no award, I challenge you to cite a posting where he did. At one point during the ceremony, he said he didn't want another category to say no award. And like Lou, I was there too.
adriennef
Oct. 18th, 2015 11:12 pm (UTC)
Re: The Hugos and the Puppy controversy
I stand corrected. The author's name is Ken Trainor Jr.
Re: The Hugos and the Puppy controversy - wombat_socho - Oct. 18th, 2015 11:23 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: The Hugos and the Puppy controversy - wombat_socho - Oct. 18th, 2015 11:21 pm (UTC) - Expand
mauser
Oct. 18th, 2015 11:36 pm (UTC)
Slight correction
It doubled the number of No Awards in the history of the Hugos, not just the last ten years.

Vox's list was basically Brad's list with Vox's choices added to the top, and the excess cut off the bottom (with one exception where an extra was taken out of the middle).
wombat_socho
Oct. 19th, 2015 12:04 am (UTC)
Re: Slight correction
I stand corrected. I remember comparing the Sad/Rabid Puppies lists earlier this year and remarking on how little difference there was in the lists.
Re: Slight correction - mauser - Oct. 19th, 2015 12:44 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Slight correction - wombat_socho - Oct. 19th, 2015 12:51 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Slight correction - mauser - Oct. 19th, 2015 02:02 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Slight correction - wombat_socho - Oct. 19th, 2015 02:08 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Slight correction - mauser - Oct. 19th, 2015 02:58 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Slight correction - wombat_socho - Oct. 19th, 2015 03:04 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - selenite - Oct. 19th, 2015 04:27 am (UTC) - Expand
RE: Re: Slight correction - (Anonymous) - Oct. 19th, 2015 06:26 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Slight correction - nwhyte - Oct. 20th, 2015 03:59 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Slight correction - wombat_socho - Oct. 20th, 2015 09:57 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Slight correction - safewrite - Oct. 19th, 2015 02:23 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Slight correction - wombat_socho - Oct. 19th, 2015 02:29 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Slight correction - robotech_master - Oct. 19th, 2015 05:09 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Slight correction - wombat_socho - Oct. 19th, 2015 05:28 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Slight correction - mauser - Oct. 19th, 2015 07:53 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Slight correction - Fail Burton - Oct. 19th, 2015 12:24 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Slight correction - rob_matic - Oct. 20th, 2015 01:35 pm (UTC) - Expand
nwhyte
Oct. 19th, 2015 05:27 am (UTC)
Just a couple of corrections for you:

"Larry Correia noticed a drop in Worldcon attendance correlating with an increase in Hugo Awards to works of SF that weren't terribly successful in the marketplace, but were written by the Right People and tended to have the Right Charcters expressing the Right Views."

Actually there was no drop in Worldcon attendance, which has been pretty constant at around 6k plus or minus 1k in large venues, and around 4k plus or minus 1k in less large venues for decades. (Apart from when it is in other continents.)

And it has never been made clear what undeserving works won the Hugos to spark Sad Puppies in the years running up to SP1 in 2013. "Chick Dig Time Lords", perhaps?

But in any case, the biggest inaccuracy is that Correia did not make these points. The original call for Sad Puppy votes does not mention falling attendance at all, nor does it mention the Hugos going to unsuccessful books with messages he didn't like. He framed it entirely around "pulp" fans v "literary" fans, using those terms, and urging the former to annoy the latter by voting for him:
http://monsterhunternation.com/2013/01/16/how-to-get-correia-nominated-for-a-hugo-part-2-a-very-special-message/

"the Sad Puppies/Rabid Puppies list - a list, mind you, that SP3 leader Brad Torgersen had not delivered from on high, but instead crowdsourced from anyone who wanted to suggest works worth nominating."

Actually, Brad largely ignored the results of his own crowdsourcing exercise and instead stuffed the SP3 list full of his cronies. If you compare the crowdsourcing:
https://bradrtorgersen.wordpress.com/2015/01/07/announcing-sad-puppies-3/
with the actual slate:
https://bradrtorgersen.wordpress.com/2015/02/01/sad-puppies-3-the-2015-hugo-slate/
you will notice that there is not a huge correlation. The details have been analysed at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KsUUULAR4McYiosUfFT1lr9IRnJgYabSuX6qgSEs19s/htmlview

Specifically, looking at the fiction categories: two of the novels on the slate (The Dark Between the Stars and Lines of Departure) received no mention at all when Torgerson asked for nominations. Four other novels were mentioned by three people each on Torgerson's discussion, and were omitted from his slate when he proposed it. One was The Martian, apparently ineligible; the others were A Sword Into Darkness, by Thomas A. Mays; Judge of Ages, by John C. Wright; and The Lost Fleet: Beyond the Frontier: Steadfast, by Jack Campbell. Another 21 novels received a nomination each, which is one nomination more than Anderson's or Kloos's.

For Best Novella, "The Plural of Helen of Troy", by John C. Wright, got three nominations and was on Torgerson's slate. But the slate also included "Big Boys Don't Cry", by Tom Kratman, which had no nominations in Torgerson's crowdsourced discussion; and it did not include "Island in a Sea of Stars" by Kevin J. Anderson, which got two nominations, nor "Sixth of the Dusk" by Brandon Sanderson, which got one.

For Best Novelette, four stories were each proposed once in Torgerson's discussion. Torgerson's slate, however, comprised four completely different nominees which had not been mentioned in that discussion, and none of those that were.

Similarly, for Best Short Story, two potential nominees got more than one mention in Togerson's discussion. They were "Domo", by Joshua M. Young, which got a massive five (more than anything else in any category except Interstellar), and "Queen of the Tyrant Lizards" by John C. Wright, which got two. Neither, however, appeared on Torgerson's slate. Another 18 stories were each mentioned once in the "crowdsourcing" discussion. Two of those did make it to Torgerson's slate, as did two stories that had not been mentioned in the discussion.

In other words, of the 16 written fiction nominees on Torgerson's slate, 11 - more than two-thirds - had not actually been nominated by anyone in the crowd-sourced discussion from which, we are told, the slate emerged.

The crowdsourcing was disregarded by the authors of SP3 in order to boost their own mates' chances of getting into the shortlists by delivering the slate from on high, but pretending they hadn't. Happy to help you put the record straight.
wombat_socho
Oct. 19th, 2015 05:38 am (UTC)
I think you're doing a fine job of projecting there without having actual quotes to back you up, except possibly in Larry's case*, and you're committing the standard error (which I am not giving anyone the benefit of the doubt on at this point) of conflating the Sad Puppies and Rabid Puppies slates.

If you didn't get a feel for what kinds of works were being objected to, you weren't paying attention. It's not my job to educate you on the history of this whole kerfluffle, especially since you seem to have made your mind up already.

*And is it so strange to think that he may have changed his mind between SP2 and SP3?

Edited at 2015-10-19 05:39 am (UTC)
(no subject) - nwhyte - Oct. 19th, 2015 10:56 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - mauser - Oct. 19th, 2015 08:07 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - nwhyte - Oct. 19th, 2015 11:03 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - mauser - Oct. 19th, 2015 12:03 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - nwhyte - Oct. 19th, 2015 12:19 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - mauser - Oct. 20th, 2015 07:31 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - nwhyte - Oct. 20th, 2015 09:23 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - mauser - Oct. 20th, 2015 09:41 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - markhh - Oct. 20th, 2015 10:50 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Derp! DERP! Derpy derp derpa derp! DERP!! - nwhyte - Oct. 20th, 2015 08:39 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Derp! DERP! Derpy derp derpa derp! DERP!! - mauser - Oct. 20th, 2015 09:47 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Derp! DERP! Derpy derp derpa derp! DERP!! - nwhyte - Oct. 20th, 2015 09:57 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Derp! DERP! Derpy derp derpa derp! DERP!! - mauser - Oct. 20th, 2015 10:08 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Derp! DERP! Derpy derp derpa derp! DERP!! - nwhyte - Oct. 20th, 2015 09:26 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Derp! DERP! Derpy derp derpa derp! DERP!! - markhh - Oct. 20th, 2015 09:40 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Derp! DERP! Derpy derp derpa derp! DERP!! - mauser - Oct. 20th, 2015 09:56 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Derp! DERP! Derpy derp derpa derp! DERP!! - nwhyte - Oct. 20th, 2015 09:59 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Derp! DERP! Derpy derp derpa derp! DERP!! - mauser - Oct. 20th, 2015 10:06 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Derp! DERP! Derpy derp derpa derp! DERP!! - nwhyte - Oct. 20th, 2015 12:53 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Derp! DERP! Derpy derp derpa derp! DERP!! - markhh - Oct. 20th, 2015 01:01 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Derp! DERP! Derpy derp derpa derp! DERP!! - lydy - Oct. 20th, 2015 02:24 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Derp! DERP! Derpy derp derpa derp! DERP!! - mauser - Oct. 20th, 2015 09:55 am (UTC) - Expand
Less Derp, more facts - markhh - Oct. 20th, 2015 09:17 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Less Derp, more facts - mauser - Oct. 20th, 2015 10:00 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Less Derp, more facts - markhh - Oct. 20th, 2015 10:54 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Derp! DERP! Derpy derp derpa derp! DERP!! - markhh - Oct. 20th, 2015 12:48 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Derp! DERP! Derpy derp derpa derp! DERP!! - markhh - Oct. 20th, 2015 01:29 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Derp! DERP! Derpy derp derpa derp! DERP!! - markhh - Oct. 20th, 2015 01:53 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Derp! DERP! Derpy derp derpa derp! DERP!! - markhh - Oct. 20th, 2015 02:07 pm (UTC) - Expand
Kip Drordy? Really? - rcade - Oct. 20th, 2015 08:41 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Kip Drordy? Really? - bradrtorgersen - Oct. 20th, 2015 09:24 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Kip Drordy? Really? - markhh - Oct. 20th, 2015 09:39 pm (UTC) - Expand
Are You Really Playing the Manly Man Card? - rcade - Oct. 20th, 2015 09:47 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Kip Drordy? Really? - nwhyte - Oct. 20th, 2015 09:35 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Kip Drordy? Really? - rcade - Oct. 20th, 2015 09:54 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Derp! DERP! Derpy derp derpa derp! DERP!! - markhh - Oct. 20th, 2015 12:45 pm (UTC) - Expand
Funny that - hypnotosov - Oct. 20th, 2015 06:46 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - catsittingstill - Oct. 20th, 2015 04:50 pm (UTC) - Expand
dd_b
Oct. 19th, 2015 06:13 am (UTC)
Minn-StF knew quite well how much Minicon was making (or, in the case of Minicon 32, losing -- which was probably a factor that helped convince the Board to finally *do something*). We knew we were giving up a good-sized income stream, in particular.

Some people don't take to fandom as I know it, and prefer other kinds. These days, there are *many* more geek social venues than fandom, too. But Minicon 50 went back up over 1000 people, and we've had almost a whole generation of con-runners now since the big change; and I'm meeting more and more people who find Convergence too crowded and not fun any more, which was exactly what people were saying about Minicon starting at least as early as 1991 (took a while to actually do anything about it). Nobody was thrown out of Minicon, but yeah, we cut back some on the things we did, expecting people to sort themselves out.

As for puppies, you attribute to them some motivations I never heard them express, and claim facts (about Worldcon attendance patterns) that are not true. The huge NO AWARD vote was basically an expression of disgust at people pushing Hugo slates. It's something that has never been done before and which has always been regarded as far beyond the edges of proper behavior. Even asking people to vote for your story is strongly frowned on -- you'll notice people like Stross and Scalzi *mentioning* what they have eligible, but those posts are conspicuously missing the "call to action" part.

The fact that the works that got on the ballots from the slates, except in the Dramatic Presentation categories, were found to be horrible by everybody I know who read them also played quite a role!
mauser
Oct. 19th, 2015 07:59 am (UTC)
"I can't imagine how Nixon got elected, nobody I know voted for him!"

That you didn't notice the rise of electioneering and slating in the last decade proves nothing beyond that you haven't been paying attention.

And you have to ask, where did they get 2500 people to act as one and vote no award? And does that not sound like a slate?

And why has nobody come forward to brag that they were one of the ones who shut the puppies down? Nobody's admitted to it publicly. Isn't that curious?
(no subject) - lydy - Oct. 19th, 2015 09:23 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - mauser - Oct. 19th, 2015 10:01 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - lydy - Oct. 19th, 2015 11:16 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - mauser - Oct. 19th, 2015 11:59 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - lydy - Oct. 19th, 2015 12:19 pm (UTC) - Expand
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(no subject) - lydy - Oct. 20th, 2015 02:34 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - Anna Feruglio Dal Dan - Oct. 20th, 2015 09:02 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - mauser - Oct. 20th, 2015 09:34 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - markhh - Oct. 20th, 2015 09:54 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - mauser - Oct. 20th, 2015 10:02 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - markhh - Oct. 20th, 2015 10:24 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - lydy - Oct. 20th, 2015 02:36 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - rob_matic - Oct. 20th, 2015 02:48 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - uglychicken - Oct. 20th, 2015 12:09 pm (UTC) - Expand
"Horrible"? - Fail Burton - Oct. 19th, 2015 08:07 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: "Horrible"? - dd_b - Oct. 19th, 2015 07:51 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: "Horrible"? - Fail Burton - Oct. 19th, 2015 11:30 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - mauser - Oct. 19th, 2015 08:16 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - wombat_socho - Oct. 19th, 2015 09:56 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - dd_b - Oct. 20th, 2015 03:07 am (UTC) - Expand
Gary Denton
Oct. 19th, 2015 07:48 am (UTC)
Nothing like the unknowledgable lecturing the fans
Fans don't like awards being hijacked.

mauser
Oct. 19th, 2015 08:01 am (UTC)
Re: Nothing like the unknowledgable lecturing the fans
"We had to destroy the village to save the village."

Where were those 2500 No Award voters when the nominations were coming around? If the cared so deeply, why did their involvement start and end within a month of the Hugo deadline?

And where are they all?
Re: Nothing like the unknowledgable lecturing the fans - (Anonymous) - Oct. 19th, 2015 05:37 pm (UTC) - Expand
Fail Burton
Oct. 19th, 2015 07:49 am (UTC)
Diversicon? LOL
All this talk of slates and Rabid vs Sad is a side show which allows social justice crusaders to pretend they haven't been fawning over multiple award winning SFF authors like Aliette de Bodard who constantly give off comments like HBO's Game of Thrones is "geared to white patriarchy." Multiply that quote by 10,000. That open bigotry has been institutionalized, relentless and daily and from a wide variety of editors, SFF authors, publishers, bloggers and others for 3 1/2 years now. One doesn't need a slate in a church and Larry Correia's original initiative was to show how much that was true. That was re-emphasized this year when the Rabid vote knocked 30 people out of the Hugo nominations, every last one of them noted for pushing the sick "feminist" ideology which has be preaching racial incitement and incitement to hate men for years now while pretending it's "social justice." I'm as liable to go to something called "Diversicon" as I am a KKK rally. I can pretty much count on people on race panels whining there's no race on the panel and others asking how they can "de-white" their library. If you're so bored with your own genre the only thing you can't think to do is talk smack about whites, men and heterosexuals then have fun. I'm not supporting a Bizarro Klan.
lydy
Oct. 19th, 2015 09:50 am (UTC)
Re: Diversicon? LOL
In point of fact, Diversicon did not start with the Great Minicon Split, but is older than that. It may have been a result of the Long Range Task Force, which was 1991 or so. In any event, it's pretty staid, solid, sf, and very much not part of the thing that you are railing against. Mind you, I'm mostly in favor of the types of diversity that you are against, insofar as I can understand you, but it would be a bad mistake to think that Diversicon in any way represents that. It was, in fact, founded before the word diversity became a rallying cry for either side.

Edited at 2015-10-19 09:51 am (UTC)
Re: Diversicon? LOL - Fail Burton - Oct. 19th, 2015 12:10 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Diversicon? LOL - lydy - Oct. 19th, 2015 12:14 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Diversicon? LOL - Fail Burton - Oct. 19th, 2015 12:41 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Diversicon? LOL - lydy - Oct. 19th, 2015 12:46 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Diversicon? LOL - Fail Burton - Oct. 19th, 2015 04:00 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Diversicon? LOL - lydy - Oct. 19th, 2015 04:07 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Diversicon? LOL - wombat_socho - Oct. 19th, 2015 09:27 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Diversicon? LOL - lydy - Oct. 20th, 2015 02:47 pm (UTC) - Expand
mauser
Oct. 19th, 2015 08:16 am (UTC)
Grrr, posted a comment with a link, it got spamboxed.
wombat_socho
Oct. 19th, 2015 09:28 pm (UTC)
Fixed. It's there now.
avocado_wish
Oct. 19th, 2015 11:43 am (UTC)
I've never heard of N3F. I'll definitely have to check that out. Thank you for your thoughtful essay.
wombat_socho
Oct. 19th, 2015 09:49 pm (UTC)
Thank you for responding. I'm glad you liked it.
cogitationitis
Oct. 19th, 2015 06:15 pm (UTC)
As timekeeper for the WSFS Business Meeting at next year's Worldcon, I object to your characterization of WSFS. First, I am an anime and media fan and gamer as well as a reader nd conrunner. Second, the chair of next year's meeting is in his 20s, and also a multi-genre fan. Third, anyone who pays is a member of WSFS--including the ~300 slate nominators and ~900 slate voters.

Reconciliation is possible. If people stop bitching and actually work toward it.
Fail Burton
Oct. 19th, 2015 07:43 pm (UTC)
Reconciliation
Great. You can start by stop honoring man-hating anti-white racist ideologues and go back to honoring genre. Or you can keep seeking the one true cross of genderblindness and race over art.
Re: Reconciliation - cogitationitis - Oct. 19th, 2015 07:51 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Reconciliation - dd_b - Oct. 19th, 2015 07:56 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Reconciliation - Fail Burton - Oct. 19th, 2015 11:24 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Reconciliation - dd_b - Oct. 20th, 2015 03:08 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Reconciliation - Fail Burton - Oct. 20th, 2015 09:04 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Reconciliation - rob_matic - Oct. 20th, 2015 01:05 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Reconciliation - sethg_prime - Oct. 20th, 2015 03:17 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - wombat_socho - Oct. 19th, 2015 09:34 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - lydy - Oct. 20th, 2015 02:51 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - wombat_socho - Oct. 20th, 2015 10:03 pm (UTC) - Expand
bradrtorgersen
Oct. 20th, 2015 04:11 pm (UTC)
Now with XTRA-SPESHUL-DERP!
This is specifically for the crew from Pravda 770:

While you're engaged in your pointless forensic takedown of Sad Puppies 3, there is an audience watching. They can see everything at Pravda 770, everything here, everything everywhere. They could see all that transpired on the night of the Hugo ceremony too.

If you guys (and a few gals) are so certain of yourselves, why are you using the comments section of this relatively anonymous LiveJournal to flail away with the same tired stew of accusations and recriminations? Why do you always use the comments section of any blog or article—which dares to point out that maybe Sad Puppies had the right idea—to flail away with the same, tired stew of accusations and recriminations?

It's like you literally can't stand the fact that people are making up their own minds about all that's transpired, and they are coming to conclusions which disagree with the Trufan (cough, CHORF, cough) narrative.

Do you think if you badger me or the LiveJournal owner, or any of the other people in this thread, enough, that you will magically win hearts and minds? Do you think you magically won hearts and minds on the night of the ceremony? Do you think you will magically win hearts and minds in the future, by devoting so much time and energy to shouting down every single source of opinion that doesn't match yours? (qualifier: every single source Mike Glyer makes you aware of.)

There could be a hundred of you in here, all posting great rhetorical broadsides, absolutely "winning" all over the place, and when all is said and done, you're still left with the fact that you are purely preaching the same gospel among yourselves. And you're doing it with a tone and style that does not in any way make anyone believe that you are an open, tolerant, embracing, exuberantly friendly crowd.

Go ahead, litigate me to death; over a court case file already closed. SP3 is in the history books. You can chew that thing to your hearts' content, and it won't make a lick of difference. I am laughing at the futility of your effort.

I said many times this year that SP3 was Fandom (caps f) on trial, not Sad Puppies. And it's true. This wasn't about the Puppies, it was about how Fandom would react when the Hugos went off the script.

Guess what? Fandom failed. And in such a mind-blogglingly public fashion, I am surprised nobody thought to have a roundtable on the larger strategic ramifications of the tasteless CHORFhole, the NO AWARDING (especially the editor categories), the classless cheering, etc. Not one Trufan who is PR savvy looked at the potential message this would collectively send, and said, "Guys, I think we may have a problem." Everyone was so myopically focused on the tactical victory, you didn't think about the big picture.

Well, congrats on your "win" folks! You sure showed us! I am sure in the future—as you continue to badger and nag and cajole and demand and litigate—that you will keep "winning."
markhh
Oct. 20th, 2015 04:29 pm (UTC)
Carpe Diem
Brad, you had so many great chances here:

You could have proved your slate was chosen in an “open and democratic way”, instead of showing you don't have a leg to stand on.
You could have made your case that the Hugos had a problem, instead of showing you don't even know who publishes what.
You could have shown you were the guy banging the drum for Andy Weir, instead of showing you were the guy who cheated him out of a nomination.
You could have conducted yourself without petty insults, instead of showing you are singularly incapable of typing anything without starting the race to the bottom.
You could have shown you had a sense of irony, instead of accusing all and sundry of what you yourself have wrought.

How many chances do you need, Brad?
Re: Carpe Diem - bradrtorgersen - Oct. 20th, 2015 04:38 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Carpe Diem - markhh - Oct. 20th, 2015 04:42 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Carpe Diem - bradrtorgersen - Oct. 20th, 2015 04:57 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Carpe Diem - markhh - Oct. 20th, 2015 05:09 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Carpe Diem - wombat_socho - Oct. 20th, 2015 10:05 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Now with XTRA-SPESHUL-DERP! - Aaron Pound - Oct. 20th, 2015 04:31 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Now with XTRA-SPESHUL-DERP! - bradrtorgersen - Oct. 20th, 2015 04:40 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Now with XTRA-SPESHUL-DERP! - Aaron Pound - Oct. 20th, 2015 04:47 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Now with XTRA-SPESHUL-DERP! - rob_matic - Oct. 20th, 2015 05:00 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Now with XTRA-SPESHUL-DERP! - nwhyte - Oct. 20th, 2015 04:38 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Now with XTRA-SPESHUL-DERP! - bradrtorgersen - Oct. 20th, 2015 04:43 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Now with XTRA-SPESHUL-DERP! - markhh - Oct. 20th, 2015 04:52 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Now with XTRA-SPESHUL-DERP! - nwhyte - Oct. 20th, 2015 04:57 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Now with XTRA-SPESHUL-DERP! - markhh - Oct. 20th, 2015 05:12 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Now with XTRA-SPESHUL-DERP! - rob_matic - Oct. 20th, 2015 04:56 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Now with XTRA-SPESHUL-DERP! - bradrtorgersen - Oct. 20th, 2015 05:00 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Now with XTRA-SPESHUL-DERP! - rob_matic - Oct. 20th, 2015 05:03 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Now with XTRA-SPESHUL-DERP! - Fail Burton - Oct. 20th, 2015 07:13 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Now with XTRA-SPESHUL-DERP! - uglychicken - Oct. 20th, 2015 07:25 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Now with XTRA-SPESHUL-DERP! - Fail Burton - Oct. 20th, 2015 07:48 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Now with XTRA-SPESHUL-DERP! - uglychicken - Oct. 20th, 2015 07:57 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Now with XTRA-SPESHUL-DERP! - Fail Burton - Oct. 20th, 2015 08:37 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Now with XTRA-SPESHUL-DERP! - uglychicken - Oct. 20th, 2015 08:44 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Now with XTRA-SPESHUL-DERP! - rob_matic - Oct. 20th, 2015 10:07 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Now with XTRA-SPESHUL-DERP! - Nickpheas - Oct. 20th, 2015 05:00 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Now with XTRA-SPESHUL-DERP! - uglychicken - Oct. 20th, 2015 06:34 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Now with XTRA-SPESHUL-DERP! - Fail Burton - Oct. 20th, 2015 07:54 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Now with XTRA-SPESHUL-DERP! - uglychicken - Oct. 20th, 2015 08:01 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Now with XTRA-SPESHUL-DERP! - Fail Burton - Oct. 20th, 2015 08:35 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Now with XTRA-SPESHUL-DERP! - uglychicken - Oct. 20th, 2015 08:43 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Now with XTRA-SPESHUL-DERP! - uglychicken - Oct. 20th, 2015 06:55 pm (UTC) - Expand
Fail Burton
Oct. 20th, 2015 08:06 pm (UTC)
IngSoc
Can you IngSoc types clue me in on something? Why do you have such a fetishistic interest in lesbianism and nostalgie de la boue? Among the entirety of the world's cultures, you're pretty much fringe lunatics out there alone on a limb. I mean, let's write a short SF story and extrapolate those marvels out into the future. It's a frickin' cul-de-sac for civilization called "Deserted No-Tech Island." If I'm wrong, why aren't all you IngSoc's running over to Mali with "No Gender December" blueprints? Don't forget your Visa cards; they still have slavery.
uglychicken
Oct. 20th, 2015 08:14 pm (UTC)
Re: IngSoc
I would love to see this straw science fiction story you weave of a straw world made entirely of straw, with straw lesbians and straw lesbian-fetishists and their amazing straw technologies. Straw-punk, we will call it, and it will reshape the way we see tomorrow. It will itch a lot, but keep the crows away.
Re: IngSoc - Nickpheas - Oct. 20th, 2015 10:06 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: IngSoc - wombat_socho - Oct. 20th, 2015 10:06 pm (UTC) - Expand
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